Polyamory is still misunderstood. The relationship dynamic unfortunately gets confused with glorified infidelity and sleeping around. However, put simply, polyamory is simply an alternative to monogamy.

So, how does polyamory work? How do we know if it’s right for us? What do we need to consider before getting into a polyamorous relationship?

I’m joined by Leanne Yau, the creator of Poly Philia, as we discuss what it means to start and maintain a polyamorous relationship.

Leanne Yau  00:57

I think like generally the positives of polyamory aren’t just heard about enough because everyone’s just focusing on like, you know, like, like, how much jealousy we’re experiencing all kind of older planning and logistics and kind of communication kind of side of things.

Leanne Yau  01:12

But, I mean, there’s loads, like, you know, for me, it’s not really like a pros and cons thing for me when it comes to practicing polyamory. It’s not like if the cons outweigh the pros, I would like stop doing it because it’s just whatever feels most natural for me.

Dimitrius  01:25

I think we’ve established by now how ridiculously awful the dating scene can be. But I don’t talk enough about what happens after you get in a relationship or how there are different relationship dynamics and structures depending on what works for you. I want to especially highlight that last section. What works for you.

Dimitrius  01:44

Polyamory, for instance, does not work for me. I’ve tried it twice and been in a relationship with at least two men who identified as polyamorous but the experiences weren’t that great. In fact, I walked away from those relationships, realizing that I had largely been manipulated into them.

Dimitrius  02:01

Now this isn’t a bash polyamory episode, I don’t want you to get that idea. I actually don’t have a problem with polyamory as a relationship structure. But I do believe that there are people who go into polyamory for their own selfish reasons, and to mask certain selfish and very problematic and exploitative characteristics that they have.

Dimitrius  02:23

And I do believe it’s important to explore every relationship dynamic, monogamous, polyamorous, whatever the case may be, to get a clearer understanding of what a healthy relationship should look and feel like my guest today is Leanne Yao.

Dimitrius  02:37

And you’re most likely familiar with her work through poly Philia, a blog that blends relatable observations about non monogamy with humor, and also served as an informational resource on polyamory. When it came to a topic like this, I wanted to make sure I spoke to an expert, since there’s already so few resources on polyamory as it is. So with that, let’s dive right in.

Dimitrius  03:02

Welcome to the Dimitrius show, where I learned how to walk through my shadows, picking the flowers I’ve grown through sheer resilience. And I may not know enough yet to start teaching, but I’m going to keep convincing you to keep pushing. I’m Dimitrius. And this is my life after speaking.

Dimitrius  03:32

I am monogamous. And like I’ve mentioned before I tried opening myself up to the polyamorous experience, and it just wasn’t for me. Now it wasn’t just because I had some not so good experiences, right? Those experiences actually helped launch a lot of much needed self reflection, which I’m very thankful for.

Dimitrius  03:52

And in doing so I realized that I have the emotional bandwidth to deal with one person at a time. And I’m not comfortable with dating someone who has other partners or who is seeking that type of arrangement. Some people call that selfish. And I simply don’t agree, I believe that everyone has their boundaries and their comfort levels that deserve to be respected and validated.

Dimitrius  04:19

There’s also a lot that goes into dating multiple partners, even if you yourself are not going to be taking on partners and it’s just the person that you’re dating who is polyamorous? It’s not just dealing with jealousy or just being completely selfless at all times. It’s also about boundaries, you have to be very deliberate with setting boundaries in every relationship model, but especially in polyamory, contrary to what a lot of people think.

Dimitrius  04:48

Because again, you have folks who go into polyamory thinking it’s just a free for all. And you can do whatever you want and not have to be held accountable for your actions or that there’s no such thing as cheat paying, for instance, because they believe that’s just something that happens in monogamy. But cheating is about deception, lying and knowingly crossing established boundaries.

Dimitrius  05:11

It’s not just about sex and infidelity. So it can happen in any relationship structure. It’s not just contained to one. I mentioned earlier that I was kind of manipulated into a polyamorous relationship. And how that happened is I was fed the line about well, no one can be your everything.

Dimitrius  05:32

You need friends, you need this, you need that. And of course at the time, I was still working through my own issues with codependency so naturally, I wanted to avoid anything that even remotely resembled a codependent relationship. So I fit into this, I bought that. And I was like, Yeah, that sounds about right. And I was convinced that being monogamous automatically meant that you were codependent.

Dimitrius  05:55

So I started dating this married polyamorous man, three months into our relationship, he took on two additional partners, and there immediately raised an eyebrow and kind of a red flag for me, because after that, we immediately started seeing each other less and less.

Dimitrius  06:12

We went from seeing each other twice a week and spending time together to only seeing each other for about three to four hours once a week. And there was never a discussion of hey, how do you feel about this? I know you’re new to polyamory. Do you have any concerns, here’s how we’re going to work out time management spending time together. Now, it was just hey, FYI, I am also dating to other people, even though you and I have only been seeing each other for three months. That’s how it works.

Dimitrius  06:39

Apparently, even though I’m a married man with children, who already has a limited amount of time and resources to devote to my marriage, let alone additional partners, he’d never stay over or anything like that. So it would be a scenario where we’d be intimate that evening, that we were spending time together once a week for three, four hours. And he’d pretty much leave immediately after go home.

Dimitrius  07:05

And I felt horrible about it. Like this doesn’t feel like a relationship. To me, even though I was told this is how it kind of works. It feels like I’m just a toy that you get to play with once a week, like you get four hours of Dimitrius time and then you gotta go home to your wife. And I know some of you are listening to this and going Dimitrius be for real. This was a married man you were involved with like you knew what was going to happen.

Dimitrius  07:28

But I didn’t expect this to happen because I was under the impression going into this, that this person was kind of like the subject matter expert on polyamory. And that I could take their lead and we would be able to make this work. But in the end, I ultimately realized that he just wanted someone to sleep with on the side. And he was collecting as many partners as possible to fulfill his every sexual whim and desire. So I cut things off.

Dimitrius  07:56

But I continue to wrestle with the idea of was it me? Do I just not get it was I the one being selfish, the next guy date, it was kind of the same thing, things were going pretty smooth for about three months, then he ended up having to move about an hour and a half away from me.

Dimitrius  08:13

So it put a tremendous strain on us being able to spend time with each other. Well, he then decides to start dating other people and immediately jumped into a new relationship. Again, three months after we started dating. He doesn’t check in with me, doesn’t help establish any boundaries, time commitment, issues, anything like that. It’s just pretty much Hey, I have another partner, FYI.

Dimitrius  08:34

So me being the person that I am, I went to him and expressed my concerns. I said, I’m not upset with you taking on an additional partner. But I’m concerned that you won’t have time for this relationship. Because I’ve literally seen this happen before.

Dimitrius  08:50

And he assured me that wouldn’t be the case. And I believed him. But then immediately after that, I didn’t hear from him for three whole days. So naturally, I was upset like anyone would be in that scenario, anyone would feel discarded and use that, like their partner found a new toy and had forgotten about the old one.

Dimitrius  09:09

Yet when I tried to have a discussion with him about this. It was immediate gaslighting, he immediately became defensive and disregarded my emotions, tried to weaponize my depression and anxiety against me to try to make it seem like I was just being completely over the top and unreasonable, et cetera, very clearly trying to emotionally manipulate and if you know me, you know that the cardinal sin when it comes to Dimitrius is gaslighting.

Dimitrius  09:39

As someone who has worked very hard to overcome a lot of mental health issues, I don’t play when it comes to making me question. My reality. I don’t accept that. So unfortunately for him, I was in a place in my life, where I had done so much self reflection and self improvement that I knew I wasn’t being unreasonable.

Dimitrius  10:00

I knew I wasn’t wrong to be upset. And I knew this wasn’t how any relationship, monogamous or otherwise should work. So that is why I’m so passionate about defining what a healthy relationship should look like. And that’s why I brought on Leanne yell the creator of poly Filia to join me on today’s episode to talk particularly about polyamory. So let’s bring her on.

Leanne Yau  10:23

Oh, I can be found on most social media platforms at the same handle. That’s poly philia blog pol y pH il IABLOG. I’m most active on Instagram, but I’m also on Tik Tok, Facebook, Twitter, and I have a Patreon where I post more bonus content and keep a video diary of kind of my polyamorous life.

Leanne Yau  10:40

And I have a shop where I sell polyamory merch at polyphiliashop.redbubble.com. So yeah, and I yeah, you can find me on social media channels. I post a lot of content there like every single day. Yeah, like I also do private sessions if you want to just talk to someone who gets it. So yeah, that’s all I do. That’s where you can find me. Oh, and I’ve website Polly philia dot blog.

Dimitrius  10:58

And if you just want to give us a short summary of who you are, what you stand for…

Leanne Yau  11:03

Yeah, sure, happy to be on the show. My name is Leon I founded poly philia. Just over two years ago, it started as a meme page for me to just kind of like post about my experiences of polyamory, but quickly kind of ballooned into what it is today, which is basically a mixture of education and entertainment, about polyamory.

Leanne Yau  11:21

So kind of my aim is to create like bite sized content that is very kind of visually and easily accessible to lots of people. And just that could basically get people to start thinking about polyamory. And to kind of have, you know, have the topic kind of enter their minds.

Leanne Yau  11:37

And yeah, you know, like, I stand for, like advocating for like diversity of relationships, for everyone to be able to customize, like, their connections with people, you know, whether it’s platonic, romantic, sexual, whatever, to, you know, like, whatever works for them and the individuals that they’re dealing with. So, you know, like, I’m not like, pro polyamory for everyone. I’m just kind of pro relationships and being able to customize them for everyone.

Dimitrius  12:02

I’m glad you mentioned that, that you’re pro, not necessarily where you feel it should be for everyone, and everyone should be doing that. But that you’re pro, I want to, I’m guessing like healthy, healthy relationships in general, whatever that looks like for you. Is that kind of what I’m getting? Yeah, pretty much.

Dimitrius  12:20

Okay, good. Good. Because I feel the same way. I will say that I am more on the monogamous end of things. But I focus on whether or not you are in a state where you’re able to take on any relationship, let alone one, let alone more than one. And identifying whether or not any of that is for you.

Dimitrius  12:41

As a monogamous person, I have to sometimes evaluate, okay, are you even equipped to date anyone, let alone whatever else you may be considering that’s on the table. So thank you.

Dimitrius  12:52

That’s, that’s absolutely great. And I love the fact that you are adding adding to the education of polyamory and putting as much information as possible out there and sharing some of your experiences, because there’s not a whole lot of education, on polyamory.

Dimitrius  13:08

Even still, even though it’s becoming more mainstream, there’s still not enough education on on just sometimes even the basics, kind of have to look a little bit. So I appreciate you, you being a very reliable resource for that. That’s why I brought you on to speak about this.

Dimitrius  13:27

So absolutely. So speaking of the more positive end of polyamory experiences, what are some positive experiences that people often don’t talk about, that we don’t hear about enough?

Leanne Yau  13:39

I think like, generally, the positives of polyamory aren’t just heard about like enough, because everyone’s just focusing on like, you know, like, like, how much jealousy we’re experiencing all kind of older planning and logistics and kind of communication and kind of the side of things.

Leanne Yau  13:53

But, I mean, there’s loads, like, you know, for me, it’s not really like a pros and cons thing for me, when it comes to practicing polyamory, it’s not like if the cons outweigh the pros, I would like stop doing it, because it’s just whatever feels most natural for me. It’s like, you know, obviously, the jury’s still out there, like on whether it’s like, you know, can be claimed as, like an identity and the same way that like, you couldn’t claim like the being gay or bisexual or trans.

Leanne Yau  14:17

But then it does feel like intrinsic to me, and kind of my values and my personality in a big way. So, but I would say, you know, I think in terms of like, what I find really fulfilling about polyamory, like other than that, you know, it’s what I feel is kind of best for me to do. You know, I really like creating kind of good relationships, like with my metamorphosis, or that term for like, your partners or the partner who you’re not dating.

Leanne Yau  14:41

You know, like, I think that being able to, you know, kind of, like, share in our love for the same person, or care for the same person and, you know, collaborating with them to, you know, like, ensure like our shared partners happiness, like is a really special relationship. I don’t think there’s an equivalent relationship for that in monogamous relationships. I think it’s something very unique to polyamory.

Leanne Yau  15:02

And I think another thing is, you know, compersion, you know, because people always like, oh, you know, don’t you get jealous, etc. And like, you know, sure, like, I think everyone gets like jealous sometimes for like, a wide variety of reasons. But then, you know, like, I experienced compersion, which is like, you know, by seeing my partner with someone else, or my partner is telling me about, like, a, like, a nice date they had or like, some hot sex they had, or you know, just like, yeah, like, just like, a nice time, like with someone else.

Leanne Yau  15:29

And like, I’ll be really happy for them, like, I’ll be, you know, I’ll experience kind of, like that kind of compassionate joy for them. As if it was my own joy. Because ultimately, like, when I love someone, I want the best for them, even if kind of like, what, you know, what they’re experiencing isn’t coming from me.

Leanne Yau  15:44

And so yeah, you know, I think these are the Yeah, like, these are the things about polyamory that I think are unique to this relationship style that I really enjoy. And I think it’s, there’s something to be served for, you know, kind of, like, apart from like, you know, advocating for like everyone to be able to customize their own relationships.

Leanne Yau  16:00

I also talk about, you know, decentering, like romance kind of specifically as, like, the be all end all of relationships like that. Yes. And so, you know, I have a lot of really close friendships where the boundaries are kind of, you know, a bit more blurred, and it’s kind of one off boundaries, a bit blurred, I mean, in the sense that, like, you know, in terms of it’s not, it’s not going to be like a fixed categorization of like, oh, yeah, that’s like our relationship with purely platonic or it’s like, purely friends with benefits, or like, it’s not romantic at all.

Leanne Yau  16:28

And I think it’s really good to be able to explore, you know, the kind of in betweens, like the gray areas and be able to express kind of, like, unconventional ways of expressing attraction, like, you know, to to platonic friends. So, I think that’s, that’s another thing as well, like, you know, polyamory is by definition about maintaining multiple kind of loving, intimate, romantic relationships.

Leanne Yau  16:49

But I think it’s also really deepened my friendships because I don’t have to worry about like, Oh, if I cut on my friend, do you know what my partner get jealous? Or, you know, think like, I was stepping on, you know, various toes or whatever.

Leanne Yau  17:01

So, so yeah, like, it’s just kind of being able to embrace the fluidity, I guess, of my connections. And yeah, like, yeah, and being able to enjoy that with people and express affection, kind of what in what ways I feel natural, to me is like a really big benefit for me.

Dimitrius  17:15

Absolutely. Absolutely. I like to, to mention the decentering of the romantic in general, and those situations and where you don’t have to, and your other relationships outside of, well, I’m thinking about it in different way.

Dimitrius  17:31

But in your relationships, there can be so many different types of attraction, there could be so many different types of dynamics between you and the people that you surround yourself with. And they don’t have to necessarily mean that, you know, there’s this huge, deeper hidden meaning to every single thing. And you can work through those, those feelings that you get those we talked about. I mean, I know you mentioned jealousy.

Dimitrius  17:55

And I wanted to kind of talk about that too, as far as it being such a demonized emotion for in polyamory and, and monogamy, where it’s just like seen as the enemy, instead of just being a negative emotion that people experience. And yes, you do need to work through that you need to figure out where that’s coming from, get to the root, and then get to a point where you’re able to appropriately address it, what’s driving that, but I feel like we also we just really are so afraid of feeling that way, much less expressing it and trying to work through it.

Dimitrius  18:30

And I believe, regardless of you know, your relationship style, that’s something that you shouldn’t be afraid to encounter. And you shouldn’t feel like, Oh, I’m experiencing jealousy. That means I’m a horrible person. I’m horrible at monogamy, and I’m unfit to be in a polyamorous relationship. I don’t think that because I have seen and kind of heard some of that. And people that were kind of curious about polyamory.

Dimitrius  18:57

They’re like, well, I don’t know if that’s for me, because you know, I would get jealous. Well, yes, you’re, you’re gonna get jealousy anyway, at some point, and that’s fine. That’s normal. It’s becoming self aware enough to where you can identify where that comes from. And you can properly communicate to your partner or partners, whoever, that you’re experiencing that.

Dimitrius  19:16

And I just wanted to really touch on that. Because I know that is a huge barrier for some people who are like, well, what is I don’t even know if that’s for me. And just saying that, no, I mean, just like with any negative emotion, that you have her experience, you need to kind of get to the core of that. And you’re only going to be able to do that by properly identifying it, expressing it in some way.

Dimitrius  19:38

And by kind of working through identifying where it comes from, and it takes time, and sometimes trial and error, you know, and you hate to call it that, but that’s kind of what it comes down to. It’s not kind of reducing people or things to commodify them. It’s just that’s just kind of how it is. We’re human beings and we learn by kind of making mistakes and messing up sometimes arms.

Dimitrius  20:00

And it’s just a part of life. So definitely wanted to mention that and appreciate you mentioning the the centering of the romance aspect of it. But moving to where another thing that I wanted to kind of discuss and bring up with regards to sexual health, I bring this up to, of course, my monogamous peers and making sure that they’re educating themselves and being just aware of the not necessarily you shouldn’t be out just sleeping around or whatever.

Dimitrius  20:30

I don’t, you know, get into all of that. But mostly of the are you are you making sure to get tested? Are you making sure you are paying attention to your body? Are you using protection, those sorts of things? Do you feel that that is also as important with polyamory?

Leanne Yau  20:46

Yeah, I think there was a study conducted in 2015 that I always bring up, like when people asked me about sexual health and polyamory because I think there’s this misconception that because you’re polyamorous, it’s like a sexual free roll, and that you’re not like, kind of caring about these things.

Leanne Yau  21:03

I mean, that, you know, I get hate comments, like, on my, on my tick tock when a lot, you know, for people just being like, oh, you know, like, you’re gonna die of AIDS or whatever. And, you know, like, so, like, I always try and like back things with that x, right.

Leanne Yau  21:16

I mean, there was a study that was conducted in 2015, by Dr. Justin Lee Miller, where, which basically examined the relationship between like, your, your relationship style, and kind of, you know, like, how often you’d how often you practice exercise, how often you get tested, like, and whether you’ve got a contraction in STI in the last like, year almost or whatever.

Leanne Yau  21:36

And basically, what it was, what was discovered was that, you know, there was no difference in kind of, you know, like STI infection rates between monogamous people and non monogamous people, like off the people that they studied in that group. And this was for two reasons.

Leanne Yau  21:50

The first reason is that, because, like, when you are a non monogamous person, and you kind of participate in the culture, and that kind of thing, kind of, you know, ethics and honesty and communication and responsibility are kind of, like, baked into the culture of non monogamy.

Leanne Yau  22:05

And because of that, there’s much more of a willingness to, like, openly talk about, like, the sex that you’re having with people, you know, like, your testing habits, like, you know, like your, your risk, you know, yeah, like your, the level of risk you’re exposing yourself to, etc, like with your partners, and to communicate if someone gets an STI, right?

Leanne Yau  22:22

So basically, it was found like nominal, cause people were much more sexually responsible, much more likely to get tested often much more likely to use protection with with multiple partners. And then the second reason was because the monogamous people in the study, were not that monogamous, like 25% of them cheated. And when they did cheat, they did not use protection, right.

Leanne Yau  22:43

So then it’s like, you know, obviously, people are like, obviously, you know, if we’re looking at it, like on paper, it’s like, okay, yeah, like, if a monogamous person only sleeps with one person, and they no one else for the rest of their lives, like, obviously, they’re going to be, like less susceptible to STI infection or non monogamous people.

Leanne Yau  22:59

But in reality, like, unfortunately, you know, the fact of the matter is that monogamous, people are not very good at being monogamous. And so you know, and they’re not, and they’re less likely to be safe when the, you know, applying monogamy imperfectly. So, so because of that, like, Yeah, like that, hence, the, you know, the the difference, you know, between those two infection rates between the two groups?

Leanne Yau  23:21

So yeah, I mean, like, sexual health is something that I talk a fair bit about my page that my clients asked me about, you know, like, in my sessions, and yeah, like, I think it’s a very important topic. Ultimately, I think, you know, everyone has, like, kind of different, you know, a different baseline for like, how much like, you know, they want to expose themselves to you, because ultimately, I think, if you’re having sex, you do run the risk of catching an STI.

Leanne Yau  23:42

And it’s just like, if you go outside, you run the risk of catching cold. So it’s just about like, you know, assessing like, okay, you know, how much protection do I want to use and which acts and whatever, without also kind of compromising on, like, my pleasure, because, you know, you can kind of posturing things through, like fingering, for instance, with your stimulation.

Leanne Yau  24:02

And some people like, yeah, you know, you don’t want to catch us, you have to wear gloves, or you can catch up, you’re kissing. So what are you going to do, like, wear a mask like, so but then, you know, there comes a point when you’re like, Okay, you know, if I could do all of these things and wrap myself up in clingfilm and saran wrap in order to prevent myself from ever catching an STI, but that would not make sex very fun.

Leanne Yau  24:21

So kind of what am I going to do to balance that and kind of what conversation Do I have to have with my partners about the kind of sex that they’re having with other people so I can assess, like, you know, what, my, what my level of risk is and what I’m comfortable with?

Dimitrius  24:33

Yes, I agree with that. And, you know, I can also agree that monogamous people are not very good at being monogamous. I mean, I’ve encountered that. So many of us encounter that daily. And, unfortunately, we do it to ourselves, right?

Dimitrius  24:50

We, we, we and it’s such a I think it comes down to just not respecting your partner at all. Maybe not even necessarily the fact that maybe you shouldn’t be monogamous, because I see also where people like myself who were mainly monogamous. We may, you know, they may just think that because they have no impulse control, for instance, and they can’t stick to a boundary that they’ve established with their partner, that that means that Oh, well that means that I’m polyamorous because I just can’t help myself.

Dimitrius  25:27

And I don’t personally believe that is what polyamory means. Or it should mean that you have no control over respecting the boundaries that you have established, with your partner. Now being attracted to people, all those other things, okay, that’s different.

Dimitrius  25:47

But mainly that you know that it’s wrong to cheat, you know that you are in a monogamous relationship with someone. And instead of communicating that you are attracted to other people, and maybe kind of reevaluating that, you are deciding to break that trust and go outside of that boundary.

Dimitrius  26:04

And so that’s what I tend to focus on when you talk about, especially like toxic monogamy. The toxic aspects of monogamy is it’s the if you are a person who regularly breaks their trust with your partner, and you do really hurtful things to your partner, that doesn’t mean that you are suddenly just this perfect candidate to be the face of you know, polyamory.

Dimitrius  26:29

And I want to I want to mention that because that’s also something that comes up with people who are curious about polyamory. They go well, I mean, I see these people who seem to be using it as an excuse for past cheating, and for their monogamy, slip ups, you know, and I don’t think it’s appropriate.

Dimitrius  26:50

I don’t think it’s fair, really, to conflate the two, because to me, those are two different things, you being untrustworthy. And, you know, being an asshole, to be honest, is not the same thing to me as being ethically non monogamous. And I don’t know if you agree with that, but that’s that’s kind of my take there when it comes to them are monogamous people that just can’t seem to get it together.

Leanne Yau  27:15

Yeah, you know, like, I definitely think that if the kidney I very strongly hold the opinion that the vast majority of monogamous people are monogamous, not because they themselves want to be but because they want their partners to be. Because I mean, whenever I have conversations with monogamous people about polyamory, and they talk to me about how and why they couldn’t do it, they always talk about how they couldn’t share their partner, you know, and they, you know, they would get jealous.

Leanne Yau  27:40

And it’s all kind of focused on like, Okay, this is focused on your partner having multiple partners are, but they don’t talk about, you know, they themselves, you know, having multiple partners and how they think of that idea, you know, is a very small minority of people who tell me, oh, I want to be monogamous, because I actually want to devote myself to one person for the rest of my life, or, you know, one person at a time as it is now, in the modern day.

Leanne Yau  27:59

It’s usually it’s usually about like, you know, they’ll be able to handle their partner having the, you know, that freedom. So, you know, and I do think like, you know, this fact that, like, I do think a lot of people secretly want to have multiple partners, but then because they can’t handle the reverse, you know, they choose to be monogamous instead.

Leanne Yau  28:18

And I think this is kind of these unexpressed desires that lead to a lot of infidelity in monogamous relationships, because I mean, yeah, like, you know, this, this different types of cheating, right? Like, I think there’s, like, I don’t think, I don’t think every single person who cheats in whatever relationship is like, immediately, like a bad person.

Leanne Yau  28:36

I think, you know, like, I very much subscribe to what is the pearl who is like a Belgian psychotherapist, who has a couple of TED Talks and a book and stuff, you know, she’s written like a really good book on infidelity called the state of affairs, and Groupon.

Leanne Yau  28:52

Yeah. It’s a really good book about like, A, that introduces like, a really, like, you know, just nuanced perspective on infidelity and why people break boundaries and relationships, and how it’s not just black and white, as you know, the person who cheated is the aggressor.

Leanne Yau  29:09

And the person who has been cheated on is the innocent victim. You know, like, a lot of people cheat in relationships, because the, you know, their relationship isn’t a good one, like, it might be abusive, and they’re looking for an escape, you know, like, there are needs that are going on met, but then their partner won’t have a conversation with them about it.

Leanne Yau  29:25

And so, you know, like, they, you know, they want to see, they want to experience a different version of themselves, you know, and, yeah, like, there’s a lot of different factors kind of mixed up in it. And like, I’m very candid about the fact that I have both I’ve been on both sides of the situation, you know, someone like has kind of broken boundaries in a relationship and also had like, my boundaries crossed by partners, right.

Leanne Yau  29:49

And every time it is so individual is so individual to the kind of circumstances that people involved, right, like the emotions kind of what was going on at the time. And yeah, like it’s not it’s Not so simple but yeah, I agree in general, right?

Leanne Yau  30:03

Like, if someone like chronically is cheating on their partner chronically cannot, like, you know, adhere to boundaries, or was just making up lots of excuses and, and fake apologies, and then just doing it repeatedly, they probably need therapy. But yeah, you know, but also I hold on kind of compassion for the fact that, like, people make mistakes.

Leanne Yau  30:22

And I think it’s, it’s, I don’t think like relationships are about like, never ever fucking up or never ever hurting your partner. I think it’s more about like, what you do after the fact, how you take responsibility for the mistakes that you’ve made, or like the hurt or the impact that it’s that’s causing your partner.

Leanne Yau  30:38

And I think, you know, that, like the efforts to repair matter more than the rupture itself, because I do think that like, you know, like ruptures and kind of boundaries, crossing and kind of stuff like that, like, shit happens. And I think it’s about what you do afterwards.

Dimitrius  30:51

So I want to give you the perspective of someone who definitely tried polyamory a few times, and just found that it just simply, it’s just not for me love that it works for other people have friends who are amazing at it, absolutely. But just in my experiences with it.

Dimitrius  31:12

And it wasn’t so much that it was just that it was negative, it just opened my eyes to the fact that I have my own set of boundaries, and things that I’m comfortable with. And in there, and it really helped me kind of figure that out.

Dimitrius  31:27

And also gain a better understanding of it so that I could sit and talk to people and go, No, this is actually you know, how it works and how you should approach it, and how you should think about it, you know, opening up people’s minds, even if they don’t subscribe to it in the end, like I did, that they wouldn’t view it through the very narrow lens that it’s often placed under anyway.

Dimitrius  31:48

So for me, it was I dated two individuals. The first was a married man. And I was his first outside of his marriage partner, partner outside of his marriage. And then he gained about, I think about two or three within like about three months of his dating. And so for me, that was just like, whoa, we barely have time to see each other as it is. And so that ended up not working out, right. Next,

Leanne Yau  32:16

I would say from my perspective, that sounds like a person who was perhaps irresponsible with their time management.

Dimitrius  32:21

Yeah. And I was able to, I was able to see that I was able to see that. And I didn’t go, Oh my gosh, polyamory is bad. It was more so like, I just don’t know it, because like you mentioned, people do mess up.

Dimitrius  32:33

And it wasn’t that he was being this evil, awful person. To me. It was just like, I don’t think this is going to work out for me, because these things they aren’t exclusive to, Polly. I mean, what am I trying to say? They’re not like, ingrained in what polyamory is, they just happen, they come up.

Dimitrius  32:54

But for me, I am comfortable devoting my time and energy to one person, and that person and it being by being reciprocated. And that works for me. And I think if you haven’t done that amount of like self reflection, that you need to do that self reflection before you come to the conclusion, that it’s not for you.

Dimitrius  33:18

Because like you mentioned before, that there are so many of us who are open to the idea of polyamory because we just think you know, it’s foreign, it’s strange, it’s not something that we’d ever be interested in. But you don’t really know until you don’t want to wait, you don’t know to try to. But that’s kind of how it is, you don’t really know really what your boundaries are, until you kind of explore yourself and figure that out.

Dimitrius  33:47

So that was him. That was when I learned that I am not interested in dating someone, because I dated someone else after that. But that’s what helped me establish, I’m not really interested in dating someone who moves so fast like that, where it kind of seems like they’re collecting, and within three months of us knowing each other, you’re now you’re already married, and now you’re dating me, you have kids, and now you’re dating to other people.

Dimitrius  34:10

Like, that’s not gonna you know what I mean, that’s not gonna work. And at the time, I was very new to polyamory. And I was kind of hoping this person would kind of take the lead. And that’s something else that I also tell people like do a lot of research. I refer them to your blog, because I think you had an article about like red flags and things like that, and they were really good. And I send them that way.

Dimitrius  34:32

Because I think it’s important for you to recognize when something isn’t quite as healthy as it should be, regardless of the relationship style, and so that you can have those really good experiences like my other friends too, who are in these relationship styles. And you can make sure that you are taking care of yourself and being the best that you can for your partner or partners, whatever the case may be.

Dimitrius  34:57

So that helped me there and then when I Data the next person, and I noticed it happening again, were been together for like three months. And it’s the same thing like, Oh, I’ve got to get on Tinder. And I’ve got to go on all these dates. And it’s like, whoa, like, we don’t even know if we like each other.

Dimitrius  35:15

We don’t know if we liked each other. And so that sort of thing. It helped me identify my patterns, and my attraction to people. And it also helped me kind of identify that you know, what, maybe just especially for right now, never say never right? Especially for right now, I think I need to start in a situation where it’s, I’m focused on one person, and vice versa.

Dimitrius  35:39

That’s what I have the energy and emotional bandwidth for right now. And perhaps later on in the future, when I I’ve gotten even more comfortable with all of that, then perhaps in the future, we can see about opening things up again, and exploring that aspect of it.

Dimitrius  35:55

But I also believe that the vast majority of monogamous monogamous people, I think they do I agree with you that they probably do have the capacity to explore those multiple relationships or additional partners. But they definitely need, in my opinion, need to do the work first, the self reflection, before they try to dive into that and really educate themselves, so that they’re not making those mistakes like that I made where you just are expecting everything to kind of fall into place.

Dimitrius  36:30

And any relationship takes a lot of intentional work and, and education. And so that’s really, I wanted to give you that perspective. Because there are those of us who we’re just like, you know, what, this is where we’re going to be right now. And maybe it’s forever maybe it’s just until I get more comfortable.

Dimitrius  36:51

And I for I find, you know, I’m in a really good place with my partner. And we’re like, you know what? We’re good. Like, we could explore new things now, because you have to do that anyway. Whether it’s non monogamy or just in the bedroom, right? Yeah, there comes a time where you have to break up the monotony.

Dimitrius  37:07

So, but I think the vast majority of us and us I mean, monogamy, monogamous people, we expect it to like you, I think you mentioned earlier this love conquers all, mindset where there shouldn’t have to be any work that needs to be done any additional changes, or whatever the case may be. And so So yeah, I just wanted to give that perspective that Yeah,

Leanne Yau  37:33

I think in response to kind of what you said about Yeah, like, kind of your experience of, of polyamory and about kind of this collective mindset that you mentioned, there definitely is, this definitely is a phenomenon.

Leanne Yau  37:44

Like, you know, I think that particularly people who are new to polyamory, like there’s this whole thing, where you’re like, Oh, my God, I can date as many people as I want, I’m gonna go on all the dates and date all the people, and then you know, you’re like two weeks in and you’ve got like, 11 people wanting a second date.

Leanne Yau  37:58

And you’re like, you know, like, something that I talked about on my pages, like time management, you know, because ultimately, like, yeah, like, you know, love is infinite, whatever. But like, also, you know, particularly if you’re married and have kids, right, like you, you have 24 hours in the day and seven days in a week. So how are you approaching that time? And I don’t just mean for, like, partners, you know, obviously, like, Yeah, we’re gonna make commitments, like with your partners about, like, how much time you want to spend with them.

Leanne Yau  38:23

But it’s also about like, balancing that with your work your kids, you know, your home, your hobbies, like, you know, the your family, volunteering with whatever else, like, you know, your personal projects, and then kind of figuring out like, Okay, how much time do I have leftover? And how much time do I want to spend on myself?

Leanne Yau  38:39

How much time do I can I spend with with partners? And do I want to spend like, you know, regular amounts of time with like, fewer partners? Or do I want to have like, lots of kind of new novel, exciting experiences with people, you know, how much time investment can I give to people?

Leanne Yau  38:55

A kind of be realistic about that, rather than kind of over promising and over committing just to, you know, not be able to follow through. And I think that’s kind of what happened, you know, with with your situation where this person was not realistic with, like, the time they had to give, and also probably enjoyed the novelty of meeting new people rather than, you know, investing in kind of connections long term, because for me, right, I have a partner, who, you know, like we yeah, we went on a first date.

Leanne Yau  39:22

And we were both still dating other people. And I was meeting new people, but then about, like, a month into our relationship. You know, we had a conversation where we were like, Okay, how often do we want to see each other? And we agreed on meeting twice a twice a week.

Leanne Yau  39:35

So it’s like, whatever else you do with your time, I don’t care, but we’re meeting twice a week, and we were able to hold each other to that. And we have been doing that since the beginning of our relationship, which was good. What like last.

Leanne Yau  39:45

So you know, and I do this with with even with the new people that I meet, you know, once we made that commitment, whenever I met a new person on a date, I’d be like, hey, you know, here’s number of partners I have, here’s how much he goes off when I meet them per week.

Leanne Yau  39:58

Here’s how much time I have That’s kind of carved out. If you’re looking for like a really high investment, kind of high new time commitment relationship, I’m not the person you’re looking for. But if you’re looking for something occasional, like, you know, like nothing kind of like regular, something casual, you know, that’s what I have capacity for, because my rotor is full.

Leanne Yau  40:17

So, you know, and yeah, like, some people would jive with that some people wouldn’t. But ultimately, it’s like, this is where I’m at. And this is kind of, you have to be realistic about that. Because you Yeah, like, it’s great to meet new people, it’s great to form new connections and get to know people.

Leanne Yau  40:30

But I never want to be in a position where like, I don’t have enough time in the day to uphold all the commitments that I’ve made to people, because they all commitments, they are multiple commitments that you are making to multiple people.

Dimitrius  40:42

Absolutely. Well, I really appreciate you saying that image kind of laying out how upfront you are, with your time, your number of partners, and being very upfront about that communication, where this is how much time I have, like realistically, I think that is something that, you know, more and more people need to need to be practicing.

Leanne Yau  41:04

And saturation. And yes,

Dimitrius  41:07

yes, polysaturation.

Leanne Yau  41:09

Yeah, yeah, just kind of wanted to throw that term out there, like holy saturation is kind of, you know, when you describe like that, like, your dance card is full, basically, like that, you have enough partners, you literally cannot take on any more, and you are good.

Leanne Yau  41:24

Or even, you know, you might have like enough time, but it’s like you, you know, you don’t you don’t have a desire to pursue what kind of more people so, so So yeah, like, you know, like people talk about kind of pull the saturation point. And not everyone needs together.

Leanne Yau  41:38

But it’s like, yeah, like, there’s a ton, but you know, those are just cuz just kind of indicate that like, you know, for people who have been doing it for a while, like, I’m kind of interested in kind of maintaining longtime connections, like that is a thing that is,

Dimitrius  41:51

I know, for me personally, and even when we talk about, you know, time commitment, something that I also wanted to get across to my monogamous peers, is the idea of, you know, there’s that phrase thrown around where no one person can be your everything.

Dimitrius  42:08

And that was said to me a lot. And I remember thinking to myself, well, I don’t want my, I don’t want them lose my everything, I just want them to be, you know, us go out once or once or twice a week or something, and go from there.

Dimitrius  42:21

And that’s because for me, I have friends, I have family, I have co workers, pets, you know, you name it, I have so many other resources when it comes to receiving some form of love, and affection, even as a monogamous person, like that’s not something that I’m like seeking for, in my partner, someone that I date, you have to be all of these things, or it will not work out.

Dimitrius  42:50

And also, you know, read my mind, you know, that thing that too. But I also wanted to throw that out there because we have so many people that think that they think that you know, my partner has to be my best friend. I see that a lot. I want someone to but that’s my best friend and this and the partner ends up being like the therapist, and you know, the caretaker, the mom, and you see it all the time on social media.

Dimitrius  43:15

And it baffled me because when someone said that to me, who was polyamorous? I thought I’m like, wait a minute, I don’t, I don’t really think that’s my thing. But then going on social media and kind of observing. I was like, Oh, I started talking about I see what you’re talking about.

Dimitrius  43:34

Yes, very, you know, we kind of throw this term around a lot. But it is a lot of it is codependency a lot of it is where we are not, we haven’t done the work to identify what causes those codependency traits in ourselves. And we are expecting our partner to be the end all be all. Yeah. And that is very, it’s very toxic. It’s very unhealthy.

Dimitrius  44:01

And I wanted to kind of put that position out and put that out there because for me, you know, I had to step back and think well, maybe since I don’t feel this way, monogamy isn’t for me. But that really wasn’t the case. It was more so that I already did the work to make sure to overcome my codependent tendencies.

Dimitrius  44:21

And so that’s why I don’t really feel that way because I like I mentioned I have friends, family pets, I have people that I can, you know, go out and hang out with and still come home that night and feel fulfilled even though I don’t have someone there at the time or the moment for that, like super romantic need.

Dimitrius  44:40

But I’m still getting what I need. I’m not and you can do that single and a poly situation or monogamous, you can still feel fulfilled, you know, and this idea, so I just wanted to kind of pull that apart and go wait a minute, like you know, it is totally possible to like I’m It’s unfulfilled.

Dimitrius  45:01

Whether you’re monogamous single poly, but you have to do that work, you have to do that self reflection, maybe go to therapy, I went to therapy, and figure out the root of some of those tendencies that you have, and also becoming more self aware. So that when you step into any situation, that you are prepared to really observe how you interact with someone, you may consider a potential partner or Metamora, or whatever the case may be.

Leanne Yau  45:34

Yeah, I mean, I don’t like I don’t pursue relationships to get needs met, in the sense that, I mean, obviously, obviously, like, yeah, you know, when you’re in relationships, like, you get something out of it, like, Yeah, but but then, but then, you know, I don’t I feel like if you go too far in that direction of being like, yeah, like, you know, I pursue polyamory because I want multiple partners to meet these various needs.

Leanne Yau  45:58

You run, you run the risk of like, objectifying people, in the sense that it’s like, oh, yeah, like, you know, you fill this need, but then yes, say, for example, okay, you meet this need, because my husband, calm providers need, but if my husband provided those needs, then I wouldn’t need you anymore.

Leanne Yau  46:12

Yeah, thank you. And that’s the, that’s the danger of it, right? Like, you know, pursuing kind of authentic connection, and not even kind of necessarily kind of romantic, right? Like, this is kind of calling back to what I said earlier, about decentering romance, it’s kind of part of like kind of polyamory or like relationship anarchy, or like whatever it is.

Leanne Yau  46:30

Because ultimately, you don’t need to practice polyamory in order to get your needs met by multiple people. Like, you know, you like you know, you your family, your friends, you have your you have like all kinds of relationships in your life.

Leanne Yau  46:42

And but then the thing about monogamy, at least kind of in how it’s kind of traditionally traditionally practiced, and how it’s like fed to us, like bye, bye, the media, and kind of stuff like that, like it encourages isolation, it encourages, like what you say about like codependency it’s not just about having one relationship at a time. It’s about like, making sure that like, none of your friends are seen as potential threats to your romantic relationship.

Leanne Yau  47:04

And I think it’s that kind of what do they call it in science and mate guarding? Like, that kind of phenomenon that, you know, really did not vibe with me, you know, like, there’s this whole idea that, like, I needed to defend kind of like my relationship, you know, how to be wary of like, all potential threats.

Leanne Yau  47:20

You know, I’d be like, you know, what are we worried about? Like, it’s okay, we have close relationships with other people. I encourage it. So so yeah. You know, like, I know, I know, you mean, yeah, like, I don’t think I don’t think that one person is able to meet all our needs, but I also don’t think people exist to meet our needs. I agree.

Leanne Yau  47:37

That’s, that’s the nuance. I want to kind of introduce to that, because I think the Oh, yeah, I can get multiple partners to meet my needs is, is a thing that is brought up in kind of non monogamous conversations. And I think that does apply in like a lot of scenarios. I don’t want to ignore that. But then it’s also that’s not the point.

Dimitrius  47:51

Yes, I agree. And I really do, thank you for bringing that part up about the how it gets into the more objectifying territory, and how we, you know, you want to kind of recognize that and see it for what it is, I experienced a little bit about from that as well from previous relationships.

Dimitrius  48:09

And absolutely you do you want to be mindful. And of course, like I mentioned, I was really new didn’t know a whole lot, and didn’t see it for what it was at first. But looking back, I was like, oh, yeah, no, I don’t think that I don’t think that was for me.

Dimitrius  48:22

And I know, based on my research and everything that that wasn’t like, that’s not how it should go. Right? It shouldn’t go where you feel like you’re just there as an as a means to an end. That is not how you should feel when a relationship, any relationship.

Leanne Yau  48:38

I think there is, you know, people can run the risk of being like very consumerist. They have their relationships. And this is not just unique to polyamory, I think, like a, like a common criticism that people have like, oh, polyamory, it’s like, oh, yeah, like, you know, you get this punished to meet this need.

Leanne Yau  48:54

And it’s so just consuming. People were objectifying people. And I was like, okay, like, yes, people do that. But, you know, also, you can do that in monogamy as well. I mean, you know, people who are like gold diggers or people who are like, you know, constantly trying to, you know, they’re in the middle of men’s relationship until they find the next person who they feel is trade up, they have more money or they’re hotter, or like whatever.

Leanne Yau  49:15

And they you know, they’re serially monogamous, or they’re serially cheating, you know, because they’re constantly looking for, like how good it could be could be happier, richer, better, rather than pursuing kind of authentic organic connection with the person that they’re with. Not seeing them as like a list of traits.

Leanne Yau  49:30

So yeah, like, you know, I think we could all do well to, to move away from like this kind of consumerist, and dare I say capitalistic mindset to relationships. And then and outside of that, like whether you want to have one relationship or multiple, like it’s like you do what the fuck you want?

Dimitrius  49:45

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I agree. And I will also say that dating oh gosh, especially right these days. It’s just very transactional, very transactional, and what can you do for me?

Dimitrius  49:57

And just, I will say They just kind of be wary of that to be wary of someone who makes it seem that who kind of indicates that they’re looking for what you can just do for them, you know, and whether you’re monogamous whatever the case may be exploring not sure.

Dimitrius  50:15

Whatever the case, you are not something to be traded for something, you know, you are a human being, you are deserving of love, and whatever form it takes, and that is what matters. It is not defined by what you provide for us. Exactly, exactly.

Leanne Yau  50:32

I think a lot of people really struggle to accept that, like, I think a lot of I think a lot of women in particular struggle to see themselves beyond like their work of like, what they can provide, you know.

Leanne Yau  50:43

Whether it’s like, you know, beauty or like whatever else, it’s like, you know, because, because, you know, women also often commodified right and kind of seen by like, yeah, like kind of the status that we provide to men. And so and yeah, like, like, I think people need to learn to accept love for like who they are, rather than what kind of what they do. But I think that’s a big ask for a lot of people because of the society that we live in.